Navigating Triggers: Alexandra & Drew Heftye
Drew is a church director of youth and family ministry. Alex is a trained clinical counselor and child welfare social worker. She is Jewish and both identify as followers of Jesus. They are parents of one small child. What can happen if two spiritually mature, emotionally healthy people hit a cross-cultural snag after one makes a remark, they intended for humor, but deeply wounds a loved one. We all can learn valuable insight from their candor and gained understanding.
“We both agreed to have conversations about spiritual harmony in our home with our son and any other future children that we were going to have.”
Interview Transcript
Tuvya: Hi, everybody. This is Tuvya Zaretsky with jewishgentilecouples.com, and I’m delighted to be today with Alex and Drew Heftye. They’re in Haledon, New Jersey. I’m really delighted to hear some of the insights they’ve had from their own backgrounds. These are two really interesting people. Drew, if I understand correctly, you’re serving as the Director of Family Discipleship at Grace Redeemer Church in Glen Rock, New Jersey?
Drew: Right. My role is to minister to the youth and their families, to work with parents as discipleship partners, to train them, partner with them, learn from them as we work together to minister to their students. So, it’s basically, hopefully every youth pastor’s dream job because not only are you getting to do the fun of youth ministry, but you really get to make an impact and be a part of the community that is raising young believers. It’s such a privilege and really a dream job in many ways.
Tuvya: What’s the age group of the kids that you’re focused on?
Drew: Sixth grade through twelfth grade.
Tuvya: Wow. Got any interesting issues happening these days?
Drew: All the time. I mean, youth ministry in the 21st Century is a whole new ball game. If you think about the history of youth ministry, a lot of times you think of the evangelical model that came out of the 60’s and 70’s. You know, young hip guy that was hired to be the junior pastor to young people, and then they eventually get promoted to an associate or lead role. And then a new guy comes in and ministers to the youth. They’ve got the cool hair, the rock and roll, and they do the big fun pizza parties. As we’ve been studying youth development, especially teenagers, there’s been so much research in that, it’s really such a different need today. Adolescence has extended to about 25, and so, really, youth pastors are faced with numerous challenges that we weren’t talking about even 10 years ago. And so, a lot of parents are caught off guard by topics like pornography, or topics like LGBTQ, topics like anxiety and pressures. And being here in the Northeast, everyone is on the IVY track, and that’s just an immense amount of pressure. So, what used to be like, youth groups competing against sporting events is now youth group is competing against pre-SATS and all the other things that are going on. And so, these parents are trying to do the best that they can, and a lot of parents feel very lost. And that’s where the church can really come in and support them and do ministry. And so, not only is youth group evangelistic, but now it’s so much more discipleship.
Tuvya: Yeah. And in discipleship, training the kids to understand what the nature of a relationship with the Living God is all about in a family context, huh?
Drew: Exactly. I mean, I cannot tell you how much it is an incredible experience to watch a child, a youth, really come to know their Lord and Savior. And these kids, when they come to realize that they’re not alone, it’s so powerful. And to see them get it and pass it on to others, even better.
Tuvya: That must be exciting to be impacting so many lives, especially today. We hear a lot of the struggles going on into the public-school systems, and you’re right in the heart of that and working with the families, which I think is the best context to be doing that. That’s great. Since you grew up in California, you’re kind of in the Diaspora out there on the East Coast?
Drew: Yes, very different for sure.
Tuvya: And Alex, you’re a Californian too?
Alex: Yes, I was born in California. But most of my adolescence was spent in Alabama.
Tuvya: Oh, that’s close. Right. (Laughter) So, your mom was Catholic, and your dad is Jewish. But you were raised in a setting that was not typical for a Jewish family at that time.
Alex: Yeah, absolutely. So, we had no extended family around, although both sides of the family were probably against my parents’ relationship when they decided to get together. So, they were searching for religious harmony. They were searching for just a way to be able to find some common ground in their relationship. My dad has passed unfortunately. So, they got connected, and we did a lot of church hopping at that time, Messianic congregations, and other traditional evangelical congregations until we settled in Alabama. And then at that point, my dad became very sick with cancer, and then he passed. And then a lot of those traditions stopped in my family. So, I’ve always had a very special relationship with my Jewish heritage but also a very complicated one and then eventually became estranged. So that’s kind of a little bit of my story there.
Tuvya: Where was your dad from?
Alex: He was born in New Jersey, actually, and then grew up in the LA area, the San Fernando Valley.
Tuvya: So, he had a fairly traditional Jewish background?
Alex: Yes, he did. Yes, it was very traditional. The remaining members of his family are still very traditional Jewish, yeah.
Tuvya: Okay, so traditional, keeping festivals, maybe not typically involved in synagogue every week but certainly connected to Jewish holidays and festivities and keeping Passover and Jewish weddings, like that?
Alex: Yes, absolutely, and I would even say synagogue. My paternal aunt does go to synagogue pretty regularly. Yeah, so, still very connected.
Tuvya: So, at some point, your dad became a follower of Jesus and married your mom, and you were raised in that dual culture. I was curious when you said you set that part of your heritage aside, what does that mean?
Alex: My dad was always the one to advocate for introducing us as Messianic Jews. He was always the one to advocate for our Jewish culture and the customs and the festivals and the holidays and keeping that alive. Because he grew up that way and that was very special to him, he wanted his children to have that experience as well. So, in our family dynamic, he was the one to always advocate for that. My mom wasn’t opposed to it. She just wasn’t the driving force behind it, but she did support it. And so, when he became ill, when I was a teenager, all of those things gradually started to fade away, and he didn’t have the strength or even the state of mind to be able to continue integrating just the beauty and the richness of the Jewish culture into our family.
Tuvya: That would make sense. If your mom wasn’t Jewish and was there supporting your dad, he was taking the leadership in that. Yeah?
Alex: Right. Exactly.
Tuvya: Okay. I get that. So, you moved from Mobile, Alabama?
Alex: Yeah.
Tuvya: And you ended up in Portland, Oregon?
Alex: Yes.
Tuvya: Is that where you two met?
Alex: Yes. Sure is. We met at Multnomah University in Portland, Oregon.
Tuvya: So, Drew, what were you studying there?
Drew: I was going through seminary so getting my Masters in Christian Leadership.
Tuvya: Alex, what were you studying?
Alex: I was studying clinical counseling.
Tuvya: Okay. And you’ve done that?
Alex: I actually haven’t. So, I did a slight career shift when we moved from Portland back down to the LA area for Drew’s job relocation about a year and a half after we got married, and so I got into child welfare. So, I am now a child welfare social worker.
Tuvya: And the two of you now have a little guy who is four-year-old. Drew, you’re from Southern California. Growing up out in Camarillo, did you know very many Jewish people?
Drew: Yes, I did. I knew some people that would be ethnically Jewish but also Christian. And I knew Jewish people who were ethnically and traditionally Jewish. So, they were going to synagogue on a relatively weekly basis.
Tuvya: Did you have a sense of how the traditional Jewish community felt about Jews that said they believed in Jesus?
Drew: I did not. I knew some ethnically and culturally Jewish people, I got to talk with them a lot about their perspective on Jesus. And so, it was interesting to hear that they valued Jesus. They thought He was a great moral teacher, that His synopsis of love being ultimately love God and love others or love your neighbor was great. But that Christians got it all wrong with the whole He’s God thing, that more of He’s just kind of like just a really good teacher, maybe a prophet but probably not. That was kind of their perspective, so they valued some of His teachings but wanted to quickly dismiss any kind of implications relating to His authority as the Christ.
Tuvya: When you talked to somebody who was Jewish, what did they understand about the word Christ?
Drew: They understood the word Christ to mean the Messiah.
Tuvya: They did. Wow.
Drew: They did. I don’t know if they related it to their own Jewish faith, but they understood that that’s where Christians got the word from. And they just talked more about a Messianic period. And they said we don’t really hold to that there will be a physical Messiah; rather we are in a Messianic period.
Tuvya: When you said some of your friends understood it to mean Messiah, that was a surprise. Growing up, I frankly just thought it was His last name. So, you know, that probably just says a lot more about my cluelessness than anything else, but that was my experience.
Alex, when you two met at the university, did you have some sense that there was a cross-cultural lack of understanding in some things as you were talking with Drew?
Alex: There was in some sense, yeah. So, I’ve always worn my star. I have a Star of David necklace that was given to me by my father on my 16th Hanukkah, and so, that always has a tendency to strike up conversations around my Jewish identity. So, I think that’s what started it. I mean, I think when I talk with anyone outside of my Messianic community, there’s always the sense that like you’re not going to fully understand my identity, who I am, my culture, my customs, my family – that’s even more personal and unique, right? So, I briefly shared that I was Messianic Jewish. I’m a product of a Jewish-Gentile couple. I shared a little bit about my parents’ journey. But it didn’t go much farther than that and I think primarily because in that season of my life, you know of course that was after my father had passed and I had moved away from home and I wasn’t connected to a Messianic Jewish congregation or community, and so I think I felt so far removed from those traditions and just kind of like that whole aspect of my previous life in a sense, that’s kind of where the conversation stopped. So, I think Drew has been such a blessing to me in the sense that he has advocated the continuation of all those things, you know, remembering Hanukkah, celebrating Hanukkah, celebrating Passover. We even participated in a Passover Seder at his church. He’s always been so thoughtful and mindful to incorporate those traditions into our relationship even though he has no personal connection to it, other than me. And I was always very blessed by that. Just his conscientiousness and his thoughtfulness, that was just very dear and special to me.
Tuvya: Drew, your experience with other Jewish people kind of got you over some of the barriers and hurdles I suppose huh?
Drew: Well, that, and honestly, when reading John 10 where it says that Jesus went to the festival of lights, I’m like, Jesus celebrated Hanukkah, there’s nothing wrong with celebrating Hanukkah and the beauty of what God did in that time. And so, if it’s celebrated by Jesus, then I have zero problems with celebrating it. And it’s been fun. The problem is, is being a Gentile, I don’t get any gifts. (Laughter)
Tuvya: I was going to you a Renaissance man ‘til you got there. (Laughter)
Well good, let’s talk about the wedding, then, the next area that we find lots of challenges cropping up. Alex, were there any Jewish cultural elements brought into the wedding ceremony?
Alex: No, there wasn’t. And I think the primary reason for that is because, as I alluded to earlier, by the time I had met Drew, I was so far removed from that part of myself. I should also add a little bit of context here. So, I have no surviving Jewish family members other than my paternal aunt, so one of my father’s sisters. And my father’s oldest sister has no contact with our family unfortunately. And then my paternal aunt was the only one, and she was in LA at the time, still is, but we were up in Portland. And so, I think the picture I’m trying to paint is, after I moved to Portland, after a pretty traumatic experience in Alabama, that’s what prompted me to move away, I just felt so far removed. So, I think there was another element as well that I probably wasn’t fully conscious of as we were planning our wedding, but as I’m reflecting on it now. When Drew and I were dating and I had become aware that he was definitely not Jewish, or Messianic, or even a combination of the two, like being a Jewish Gentile. He was a pastor, right? Like he was a Protestant pastor, and so I think I kind of just made I guess an unconscious sacrifice. Like again, I wasn’t fully aware of okay, I am now sacrificing an opportunity to be in a relationship with a Messianic Jew or a Jew. Okay, I’m going to be moving on with my life now in a totally different direction. So, the issue of incorporating any kind of Jewish traditions into our wedding never came up because I think even prior to that point I was like, okay, this is going to be my new life then. I’m going to leave that possibility behind me.
Tuvya: Let me put this question out to both of you then. So, you got married, you’d come from different cultural backgrounds, were there challenges as you got to know one another and realized that there were things about your partner’s background that were very different than your own?
Alex: I think for me, the biggest thing is there were a lot of traditions celebrated in my family, and because of my dad being the driving force behind incorporating all of those traditions and just the richness and the history and so much of it. And Drew has a much different story and didn’t really have that. But what I think is unique about our particular relationship is that he advocated for those things even though he didn’t have that experience. So, I don’t think I would say that it ever caused like conflict, but it was definitely a difference.
Tuvya: So, the springtime comes around, and Drew, you’re used to looking at the resurrection of Jesus as part of your church calendar, and Alex says, “We ought to celebrate Passover.” Did that happen?
Drew: Um, it did not. I’m more likely to actually advocate in our marriage for that. I think as Alex has slowly opened up about her heritage, it has helped me be able to get excited about her culture and what she brings to the table. In all honesty, I was not even remotely as interested in Passover or Yom Kippur or Hanukkah until dating and getting to know Alex better as a woman of faith but especially as a Jewish woman of faith.
Tuvya: Have you ever had somebody say something anti-Semitic around you and had you prompted to say, “You know, my wife is Jewish,” just to kind of warn them off?
Drew: So, this would be good confession time. I have. It’s mostly been since our son’s been born that I’ve heard stuff like that. I thought because my son is a quarter Jewish ethically, I thought I could say an anti-Semitic joke and it’s okay because I’m a dad and a husband of Jewish people. And the horror of my wife’s face definitely showed me that that is never appropriate.
Alex: Yeah, I didn’t navigate it well at first. I think I was extremely triggered. I was extremely offended. And so, I really had to just try and stay calm. And I’m grateful that as Drew was watching me experience that reaction, he immediately recanted what he said, and he was like, “Oh, I’m so sorry.” He didn’t even recognize that it was offensive. And so, in that moment, I realized that comment did not come from a place of malice. It was just ignorance. And so, I think when I was able to make that shift in my mind by the grace of God, we were able to have a conversation about it. And I was like, “Drew, what possessed you to make that kind of comment?” And then we were able to kind of process that together, and he explained a lot of what he just shared. So that was my journey. That’s how I processed it.
Drew: So, I do not say those things anymore. But, because of that conversation, which was a hard one, for sure, I fully repented and I’m sorry for what I said. I’ve had to say to people, “Listen, my wife is half Jewish and my son is a quarter Jewish. You need to be a little bit more sensitive because there are people around you who are Jewish.”
Tuvya: Let me just let you off the hook there for a moment. There are a lot of people who think that ethnic jokes are fun and funny to make about people without ever understanding that they’re unintended, but if you’ve experienced that kind of slights, it’s very painful. I’m not somebody that goes around looking to cancel people at all. But I was in college at a time when those things were common. It was incredibly painful, but it was also helpful for me to be able to learn to say to somebody…they’d make a comment, “You know, I’m Jewish.” And they would go, “Some of my best friends are Jewish.” And my response to that was, “Well, that’s a surprise.”
Drew: Yeah.
Tuvya: Now, I want to ask a pointed question. Where does the thought that somebody is half Jewish come from?
Drew: More relating to just the biological, Alex’s mom being a Gentile and her dad being…like he was biologically 100%, and then Alex did a whole like 23andme, one of those genetic things, and sort of came out like 50%. So, that’s where it’s like half Jewish. I would say like as a family, our identity though, I would say we’re a Jewish-Christian family. I identify with that. It’s funny how often she’s like, “You’re not even Jewish.” But I’m like, “I identify as Jewish now because I’m married to you, and I have a son.” Those traditions have become important to me and valuable to me because of my wife, and now especially sharing a child together and valuing his heritage.
Tuvya: So, here’s why I ask that kind of question when people talk about being half Jewish or a quarter Jewish. I know what 23andme says but let me ask you this. Do you recall Moses married a Midianite?
Drew: Yeah. Zipporah.
Tuvya: So, were his kids half Jewish?
Drew: Good point.
Tuvya: Let me ask another one.
Drew: Oh, I know where you’re going with this.
Tuvya: So, King David’s great grandmother…
Drew: Yep.
Tuvya: …was Ruth the Moabite…
Drew: Yep.
Tuvya: …never called Ruth the Jew, and yet she is in the lineage of King David, and I don’t think anybody calls him half or half Z, or something like that. Yeah. Would you concede that it’s altogether possible for somebody to have one parent who’s Jewish, and for them to have an internal identity as a Jewish individual?
Drew: Yeah. That’s a good insight. I hadn’t thought about it.
Tuvya: I want to be able to say to people that Jewishness is a genetic connection, but what we do culturally to walk that out and see the Biblical heritage and some of the traditions that help live that out, that’s very important.
That also brings me to the question about when you were thinking of having children, did these issues come up, and if they did, what kinds of interesting conversations surrounded that?
Alex: Yeah, they did come up, definitely, and we had some really great conversations about it. I’m actually so thankful, and I think I mentioned this before, that Drew has always been so supportive of the continuation of my Jewish identity, he’s been such an advocate for it. So, when we talked about having kids, thankfully, we didn’t have a lot of conflict about things like getting him circumcised when we found out he was going to be a boy, or celebrating Hanukkah around Christmas time, and learning how to integrate both of those traditions the way that my parents did and taught my brother and myself about how to have harmony with those two things. And so, we both agreed to have those kinds of conversations with our son and any other future children that we were going to have. So, I definitely told Drew that in the same way my dad was an advocate for those Jewish traditions to continue in our family, I also wanted to be an advocate for that to continue in our family as a Jewish-Gentile couple and how to integrate those two things harmoniously. Drew’s always been very supportive. He’s always been so curious as well and has always asked about, “Well, Alex, “When you were growing up what did your dad do about this, or how did your family celebrate this, or what are some traditions around this time of year that you guys have?
Drew: And I would say when we celebrate the traditions, we don’t get it right 100% of the time.
Tuvya: It’s easy to get lost in trying to do things that we assume are the right way or to please God somehow. I’ve found in all the holidays that there is something built into it that enhances my relationship with God, causes me to love Him more, to be more connected with Him, and where that holiday, then, integrates and inspires my faith. And I would just encourage you do not worry about doing the perfect right form but find that heart and meaning.
Well, thank you so much for taking the time to do this. And I think a lot of people will be glad to hear. If they want to get in touch with you, is it okay if they contact me, and I’ll pass along an email to you that you can reach out to them?
Alex: Absolutely.
Drew: Of course.
Tuvya: Thanks
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If you or someone you know would like support in your relationship, write to tuvya@jewishgentilecouples.com.
